Difference between revisions of "Forks talk:Wiki Standards"

From LinuxWorks Minetest Server Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search
(Yes, you really should be able to find them without coordinates)
Line 186: Line 186:
 
As it seems that no Open Source editor is available I declare this discussion about PMZ as ended. <br>
 
As it seems that no Open Source editor is available I declare this discussion about PMZ as ended. <br>
 
--[[User:Och Noe|Och Noe]] ([[User talk:Och Noe|talk]]) 12:00, 10 October 2019 (CEST)
 
--[[User:Och Noe|Och Noe]] ([[User talk:Och Noe|talk]]) 12:00, 10 October 2019 (CEST)
 +
 +
ParalyzeEntertain:
 +
* Most stations have no timetable for departure information, mainly due to the feature not built into station/stop tracks.
 +
* The developer of Advtrains has added railway time (RWT) to advtrains, which ''claims'' to be better than real life time (RLT)-based timetables. However:
 +
:* this isn't (yet) proven to be better
 +
:* it is not related to RLT, which adds complexity for currently existing timetables
 +
:* it's not widely used yet.
 +
:* the theory of RWT itself is still being questioned.
 +
* Even for stations with timetables (controlled by LuaATC), it's still not possible to make sure that trains come at the expected time, due to possible occupation of track sections by other trains.
 +
* As for trip planning:
 +
:* The railway system has grown to be very large, and it will continue to expand. It's better to have this feature inside the game (similar to ticket machines, except no ticket is sold), where it's easier for railway system managers to edit the data directly.
 +
:* There's no timetable for most lines (as mentioned above). Therefore, such trip planning may result in a long waiting time (for example, waiting for {{AM}} instead of taking a detour via West Mountains to [[Crossroads]]).
 +
* On Firefox and Chromium/Chrome, it is possible to search inside SVG files. (you might want to click "Highlight all" in Firefox)
 +
--[[User:Ywang|Ywang]] ([[User talk:Ywang|talk]]) 13:56, 10 October 2019 (CEST)

Revision as of 13:56, 10 October 2019

Votes

If you leave a comment other than to vote, please sign it with --~~~~. Responses can be indented by starting the paragraph with :.

English

What version of English should the wiki use? This includes rail terminology. If you have a complex opinion, please discuss below and sign your comment.

Language For Against
American English
defense/labor/organize/analyze
British English
defence/labour/organise/analyse
Blockhead
British English with -ize
defence/labour/organize/analyze
Pietspeech gabriel
Neutral
(Respect the authors writing the wiki)
  • Ywang
  • Och_Noe
  • ParalyzeEntertain
  • Some english terminology has a too broad meaning, so in some places words in other languages would clearer describe a meaning. A good example is "Kopfbahnhof", because the english word "terminus" also describes a station at the end of a line, but Kopfbahnhof only says that the tracks are comming from one side. Also english it not the native language of most players/authors. --Och Noe (talk) 19:11, 3 October 2019 (CEST)
  • I think "Neutral" is enough to explain that the users are not for/against any favor of English.
  • Such discussions are (imho) similar to arguing for/against Taiwan Chinese and Hong Kong Chinese (both are "variants" or Traditional Chinese), and now some websites simply use zh_Hant (Han traditional) instead of zh_HK or zh_TW.
  • If possible, I would (in fact) ask users to also write in their native language(s) along with English. Conflicts caused by cultural differences aren't rare.
--Ywang (talk) 23:41, 3 October 2019 (CEST)
In my opinion, 'terminal' railway station (not terminus) is sufficient in meaning, though probably not quite as clear as in the German. Other adjectives apply for other cases in English where, as you say, it may be clearer in German.
--Blockhead (talk) 08:09, 9 October 2019 (CEST)
We can define "our" meaning of such (railway) vocabulary so that possible misunderstandings can be prevented. Such a list should IMHO also include a definition in our main languages (de, ru and perhaps es). For us are then such words clearly defined in their meaning and should not cause any more misunderstandings.
--Och Noe (talk) 09:03, 9 October 2019 (CEST)
  • I don't think standardizing on any particular variant of English is worth the burden it would likely create for many of the contributors here. As a native speaker I can read and understand the variations without too much difficulty but I would be challenged to write anything but my native variant correctly. (And even that isn't perfect!) I can imagine that it could be especially difficult for non English native speakers. Would a glossary page for commonly used railroad, er, I mean, railway related terminology used on this server be sufficient to address much of concern? --Marnack (talk) 03:17, 4 October 2019 (CEST)

FYI (some history):

--Ywang (talk) 09:15, 4 October 2019 (CEST)

Places vs Stations

Should places be separate from railway stations? E.g. Szymon's Dam vs. Ministry of Transport and Ministry of Transport Subway Station.

Resolution For Against
Always separate
  • Blockhead
  • Ywang
  • Och_Noe
  • Marnack
Separate unless place is noteable
Always together ParalyzeEntertain

Noteable places is taken to mean places that exist outside of having a railway station. Stations that are otherwise in wilderness would not be considered to have noteable places. If you wish to dispute or more strongly define notability, please leave your comment below and sign it.

"Take your time to document railway stations properly, rather than rushing to get coordinates for everything."

That's a problem, because

  • the location of some places is mentioned only relative to other places, so coordinates are useful on their own;
  • I don't know the terms (like railway vs line; apparently "line" means "route", but I am not sure what "railway" means: what if two systems are connected?) — I just want to get somewhere, I have GPS, maps are not readily available.

Example: The only mention of Hippodrome is in E31. Only two of its stations have an article, of them only Euler Street Station has coordinates. --ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 19:43, 3 October 2019 (CEST)

Afaik:
  • Railway = the tracks thenselves
  • Line = the "Line" property of trains (LuaATC get_line())
  • Routingcode (RC) = the "Routingcode" property of trains (LuaATC get_rc())
  • Route = Interlocking routes that are programmed to allow the arrangement of signal apparatus that prevents conflicting movements through an arrangement of tracks such as junctions or crossings. (definition of "Interlocking" is copied from the Wikipedia page "Interlocking".)
  • Lines and routes do not have to be the same.
  • Trains are kept as basic infrastructure. This is also why they exist.
  • The statement means "Don't document stations only by writing the coordinates. Document stations with detailed information (incl. coordinates).", not "Don't write the coordinates of stations."
--Ywang (talk) 23:30, 3 October 2019 (CEST)
The question was: was this too bad? I gathered the coordinates without getting off the train, just by writing them down at stops while going to where I needed. --ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 01:50, 4 October 2019 (CEST)
"I gathered the coordinates without getting off the train, just by writing them down at stops while going to where I needed." is the problem.
Trains are objects, not nodes. While you get the coordinates on the trains, others who teleport to the coords land on the tracks instead. For readers, "maybe in a train" basically means "if you teleport to the given coords, you will probably land on the tracks and get killed by a train".
Please also round the coordinates upwards (i.e. 14 instead of 13.5, -1 instead of -1.5, etc)
--Ywang (talk) 02:10, 4 October 2019 (CEST)
But that problem is different than what the sentence describes. --ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 13:12, 4 October 2019 (CEST)
You misidentified the problem. The problem in your edit is that you added the coordinates at the cost of potentially killing other players.
The sentence is not wrong by encouraging detailed content (which also includes coordinates) instead of low-quality content that exist only to let people know the existence of stations.
--Ywang (talk) 13:56, 9 October 2019 (CEST)
I added a preface to clarify that it's not a strict requirement. --ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 22:43, 9 October 2019 (CEST)

Let me address personhood: In my opinion, since we have the Personhood Metrorail map already on the wiki and in game, there is no need to give co-ordinates for a station in order for someone to be able to find it. Someone who arrives at a Metrorail station with can find where they are on the map and navigate elsewhere. It is probably still unclear to some how to get to Main Station or Personhood West, given that currently the only place to find the regional rail map is on the wiki on Local Lines or Express Lines, but the main way to address this would be to make the simplified 'how to escape spawn' map.

Given that (a) You should be able to find the station without co-ordinates and (b) As ywang has said already, coodinates on the track are unacceptable, I find that making stub pages like you have is not particularly useful. It is a good addition to mention nearby places as you have in Bike Shop, but I still think (and the poll shows) that places should remain separate from stations. And there is a saying: "A picture is worth a thousand words". Showing at least one picture of a station is a vast improvement over 0: If I think a station is worth adding to the wiki, I think it is worth taking a screenshot of.

Now I have been to many more stations than those I have written co-ordinates for on the wiki. What I use is the cs_waypoints client side mod to store these co-ordinates. You will probably also find this useful if you want to teleport to stations (or other places) frequently. You might also want to use it to 'bookmark' places to come back to later. I understand you might be on mobile so the following advice might not apply but: If you want to traverse a line and write down co-ordinates without getting off at every stop, add them all as waypoints as you travel, then come back to those waypoints later before you publish the concordes. And it would be really nice if you would take the time to take a screenshot as well as the co-ords.

My blunt answer to "Was this too bad?" is: yes, but additionally I think you could add more quality for little effort. I do appreciate that you want to contribute, I just want you to keep a bare minimum standard.

-- Blockhead

Maps being on the wiki: browsing and playing a game where you can miss a train is not optimal. However, remembering a transit map for a place you go only once to is not very fun (and less important than IRL), so of course it's good to have a map on the wiki, if you can find the necessary map quickly, and the station on the map. I see all the maps are in PNG or SVG, and there is no way to find the station by name without looking carefully — which may be interesting, but not too useful if the map is actually missing that place, like File:RegionalRailMap.png, which only refers to Ph Metrorail. Some stations in the world are still not mentioned on the wiki though, or have no names displayed in-game. I've seen "Fervojo espera" somewhere around Stallmangrad weeks ago — although maybe that was the track name, and the station name somewhere in the train or in a protected area name, or not yet existing at all. --ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 22:43, 9 October 2019 (CEST)
How are the downloadable maps made? There are map viewers for at least the pMetro's PMZ map format, in which you can find stations by name and let it calculate the optimal route (though the results are ordered based on travel times, which have to be approximated somehow).
  • pMetro is a freeware program for Windows. The map license is somewhat unclear ("free for noncommercial use and for GPL projects"). The editor is also non-free, but the format has a description. The station and line positions on the map are specified as coordinates.
  • Current maps from the program https://pmetro.github.io/maps.htm
  • Of free viewers, the website (which currently has a malicious redirect added somewhere, probably with JS) links to at least:
--ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 22:43, 9 October 2019 (CEST)


To answer/respond to the point you talked about:

  • About maps: the actual line maps are created AFAIK with inkscape, if you load them in inkscape or any other program which can edit SVG you can search for place names. Currently the maps are only made to look at, not for searching for routes.
  • missing places: it is not mandatory for players to write about their cities and places - that is all done voluntary. And several places made by players which had left the server, so only someone who is a long time on the server could know details about such places.
  • names: sometimes the names for places or areas are only visible on a small sign, as area name or it's a name which is not yet written down somewhere, as you have noticed. If you want to know where a place is and can't find it - ask in the chat. You can also add an "empty" page in the wiki with the content that the location is unknown - someone will add sooner or later informations. But please also respect that some places have a name but are not disclosed, because the owner wants to improve that place before making it public. The station names were often decided within seconds to have a name for a station. Some stations have been renamed after some time because a well-known building (etc) was established near that station.
  • pMetro: offering a "RedmondOS"-only program to make maps to us here on the server is like stepping in a minefield - please take again a look at the servername.

--Och Noe (talk) 23:58, 9 October 2019 (CEST)

Blockhead, "You should be able to find the station without co-ordinates"… What if I want to get to a station without teleporting to a big city? Maps have to be edited to align the coordinates. out.svg shows no stations except for the termini. Small stations are almost invisible on the "satellite photos". Two stations can be far from each other, so simply going to the line may be no better than going to a city. --ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 02:13, 10 October 2019 (CEST)

You should be able to find the station without coordinates, because if you know there's a station you want to get to, you probably already know what system it's on and where to find the map for that system. If you don't know that a place exists, then you won't be looking for it. If you know you want to get somewhere, ask if anybody online knows how to get there, or get on the wiki and look up the map. The Regional Rail Map is for looking up how to get between major cities without teleportation. Once you get to the city, you should find a local map. This only breaks down if you can't find a platform with the right service on it or there is no map. I want to make sure neither of those things happens. Then you will be able to find stations without their coordinates.
Your approach seems to be to walk to stations. This isn't how the train system should work; according to you it doesn't work so well. I've asked Gabriel before about putting the regional map in game, but it's too complex so it will probably be simplified and also split into regions. Then you should have no troubles navigating between cities.
-Blockhead (talk) 12:21, 10 October 2019 (CEST)

Och Noe,

  • Maps: Indeed, I haven't thought of searching for the SVG file on the wiki itself. On the other hand, some searches on this wiki do fail.
  • missing places: that's why starting the page is useful.
  • names: ok to everything.
  • pMetro (this really belongs in Talk:Maps — let's move the text?): I take it you stopped reading in the middle of the first item of the list. I didn't even link to anything non-free but (maybe, see above) the default maps as an example (some viewers apparently ship nothing). I was talking about the described file format and a few GPL viewers for GNU/Linux, Android etc. However, the advantage of ease of editing SVG in Inkscape is bigger than that of automated pathfinding.

An attempt of comparison between Inkscape+SVG and text editor/metromap+PMZ (I am not familiar with editing either):

PMZ SVG
File format ZIP with text files XML
Editing Manually enter data (coordinates of lines and stations, click rectangles). Viewers help with consistent styling, though you can do it with SVG using Inkscape and/or CSS if you pay attention. GUI, Beziér curves; text is also possible. Can you connect a station's group of objects to a curve's control point (and probably transfer control points) to keep them together when reshaping the line (like in Blender's Node Editor)? SVG wins.
Viewing
  • Convenient station search.
  • Pathfinding. PMZ would have won, if this was important.
  • Convenient station search and wiki page links in Firefox, not-so-convenient search UI (pressing Tab, Locked objects) and no good result highlighting (not sure about links) in Inkscape. For small maps, SVG wins in Firefox.
  • No pathfinding.
Description available Described in 2008; files use some features probably not in the descriptions, like stuff under construction, and some stuff that belongs in the wiki either way. Everything there is to describe is described.
Detailed data Some additional data is supported, but viewer support varies. Anything can be added, probably easier.
Underlying picture support Yes, but what kind of? Yes, if the viewer supports it
Editor support Text-only, not easy. Inkscape, depends on the action. Text-only, depends.
Viewer support Two for desktop Linux (in C++ and Python) and two Android-only (in Java and Java?); rarely updated, but at least three should work. At least a few vector and raster editors and viewers, MediaWiki; most web browsers have some support.

--ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 06:00, 10 October 2019 (CEST)


Hello ParalyzeEntertain,
I think you miss the important point: "Is there an Open Source program to edit PMZ files?"

  • No --> no one of the main contributors to the wiki will make an PMZ file --> any further discussion is wasted time and the complete discussion ends here as offically no PMZ file will be created or supported.
  • Yes --> Please tell us where.

The number of available viewer and the supported operation system is not relevant.

As it seems that no Open Source editor is available I declare this discussion about PMZ as ended.
--Och Noe (talk) 12:00, 10 October 2019 (CEST)

ParalyzeEntertain:

  • Most stations have no timetable for departure information, mainly due to the feature not built into station/stop tracks.
  • The developer of Advtrains has added railway time (RWT) to advtrains, which claims to be better than real life time (RLT)-based timetables. However:
  • this isn't (yet) proven to be better
  • it is not related to RLT, which adds complexity for currently existing timetables
  • it's not widely used yet.
  • the theory of RWT itself is still being questioned.
  • Even for stations with timetables (controlled by LuaATC), it's still not possible to make sure that trains come at the expected time, due to possible occupation of track sections by other trains.
  • As for trip planning:
  • The railway system has grown to be very large, and it will continue to expand. It's better to have this feature inside the game (similar to ticket machines, except no ticket is sold), where it's easier for railway system managers to edit the data directly.
  • There's no timetable for most lines (as mentioned above). Therefore, such trip planning may result in a long waiting time (for example, waiting for ATL-M instead of taking a detour via West Mountains to Crossroads).
  • On Firefox and Chromium/Chrome, it is possible to search inside SVG files. (you might want to click "Highlight all" in Firefox)

--Ywang (talk) 13:56, 10 October 2019 (CEST)