Difference between revisions of "Talk:Maps"

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(SVG)
(SVG vs PMZ and other stuff: new section)
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:* When I open out.svg with Inkscape, it has the underlying map scaled to 960×960; the vector layer has some extra space. For Inkscape, you need to scale and move the contents to align both 0,0 and the rest. I just did that, but had to do extra calculations instead of just changing the position to -3000,-3000. I will also have to update it to use the world.png. Scaling does not seem to affect RAM usage significantly. --[[User:ParalyzeEntertain|ParalyzeEntertain]] ([[User talk:ParalyzeEntertain|talk]]) 01:02, 10 October 2019 (CEST)
 
:* When I open out.svg with Inkscape, it has the underlying map scaled to 960×960; the vector layer has some extra space. For Inkscape, you need to scale and move the contents to align both 0,0 and the rest. I just did that, but had to do extra calculations instead of just changing the position to -3000,-3000. I will also have to update it to use the world.png. Scaling does not seem to affect RAM usage significantly. --[[User:ParalyzeEntertain|ParalyzeEntertain]] ([[User talk:ParalyzeEntertain|talk]]) 01:02, 10 October 2019 (CEST)
 +
 +
== SVG vs PMZ and other stuff ==
 +
 +
<center>''Moved from [https://wiki.linux-forks.de/mediawiki/index.php?title=Forks_talk:Wiki_Standards&oldid=9287 Forks talk:Wiki Standards] on 10 Oct 2019. Some parts left there, although also copied here.''</center>
 +
 +
: How are the downloadable maps made? There are map viewers for at least the pMetro's PMZ map format, in which you can find stations by name and let it calculate the optimal route (though the results are ordered based on travel times, which have to be approximated somehow).
 +
:* pMetro is a freeware program for Windows. The map license is somewhat unclear ("free for noncommercial use and for GPL projects"). The editor is also non-free, but the format has a description. The station and line positions on the map are specified as coordinates.
 +
:* Current maps from the program https://pmetro.github.io/maps.htm
 +
:* Of free viewers, the website (which currently has a malicious redirect added somewhere, probably with JS) links to at least:
 +
:** [http://metromap.antex.ru/ metromap] (what I use)
 +
:** [https://sourceforge.net/projects/qmetro/ qMetro]
 +
:** [http://en.ametro.org/ aMetro] for Android (the site has a translation of the PMZ map format description — although aMetro itself converts it into its own format automatically) / [https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.ametro/ F-Droid page]
 +
:** [https://github.com/Utyff/pMetro pMetro] for Android (a namesake) / [https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.utyf.pmetro/ F-Droid page]
 +
: --[[User:ParalyzeEntertain|ParalyzeEntertain]] ([[User talk:ParalyzeEntertain|talk]]) 22:43, 9 October 2019 (CEST)
 +
 +
 +
To answer/respond to the point you talked about:
 +
* About maps: the actual line maps are created AFAIK with inkscape, if you load them in inkscape or any other program which can edit SVG you can search for place names. Currently the maps are only made to look at, not for searching for routes.
 +
* missing places: it is not mandatory for players to write about their cities and places - that is all done voluntary.  And several places made by players which had left the server, so only someone who is a long time on the server could know details about such places. 
 +
* names: sometimes the names for places or areas are only visible on a small sign, as area name or it's a name which is not yet written down somewhere, as you have noticed. If you want to know where a place is and can't find it - ask in the chat. You can also add an "empty" page in the wiki with the content that the location is unknown - someone will add sooner or later informations. But please also respect that some places have a name but are not disclosed, because the owner wants to improve that place before making it public. The station names were often decided within seconds to have a name for a station. Some stations have been renamed after some time because a well-known building (etc) was established near that station.
 +
* pMetro:  offering a "RedmondOS"-only program to make maps to us here on the server is like stepping in a minefield - please take again a look at the servername. <br>
 +
--[[User:Och Noe|Och Noe]] ([[User talk:Och Noe|talk]]) 23:58, 9 October 2019 (CEST)
 +
 +
Blockhead, "You should be able to find the station without co-ordinates"… What if I want to get to a station without teleporting to a big city? [[Maps]] have to be edited to align the coordinates. <tt>out.svg</tt> shows no stations except for the termini. Small stations are almost invisible on the "satellite photos". Two stations can be far from each other, so simply going to the line may be no better than going to a city. --[[User:ParalyzeEntertain|ParalyzeEntertain]] ([[User talk:ParalyzeEntertain|talk]]) 02:13, 10 October 2019 (CEST)
 +
 +
:You should be able to find the station without coordinates, because if you know there's a station you want to get to, you probably already know what system it's on and where to find the map for that system. If you don't know that a place exists, then you won't be looking for it. If you know you want to get somewhere, ask if anybody online knows how to get there, or get on the wiki and look up the map. The [https://wiki.linux-forks.de/mediawiki/index.php/File:RegionalRailMap.svg Regional Rail Map] is for looking up how to get between major cities without teleportation. Once you get to the city, you should find a local map. This only breaks down if you can't find a platform with the right service on it or there is no map. I want to make sure neither of those things happens. Then you will be able to find stations without their coordinates.
 +
 +
:Your approach seems to be to walk to stations. This isn't how the train system should work; according to you it doesn't work so well. I've asked Gabriel before about putting the regional map in game, but it's too complex so it will probably be simplified and also split into regions. Then you should have no troubles navigating between cities.
 +
 +
:-[[User:Blockhead|Blockhead]] ([[User talk:Blockhead|talk]]) 12:21, 10 October 2019 (CEST)
 +
 +
[[User:Och Noe|Och Noe]],
 +
* Maps: Indeed, I haven't thought of searching for the SVG file on the wiki itself. On the other hand, some searches on this wiki do fail.
 +
* missing places: that's why starting the page is useful.
 +
* names: ok to everything.
 +
* pMetro (this really belongs in [[Talk:Maps]] — let's move the text?): I take it you stopped reading in the middle of the first item of the list. I didn't even link to anything non-free but (maybe, see above) the default maps as an example (some viewers apparently ship nothing). I was talking about the described file format and a few GPL viewers for GNU/Linux, Android etc. However, the advantage of ease of editing SVG in Inkscape is bigger than that of automated pathfinding.
 +
 +
An attempt of comparison between Inkscape+SVG and text editor/metromap+PMZ (''I am not familiar with editing either''):
 +
 +
{| class="wikitable"
 +
! !! PMZ !! SVG
 +
|-
 +
| File format || ZIP with text files || XML
 +
|-
 +
| Editing
 +
| Manually enter data (coordinates of lines and stations, click rectangles). Viewers help with consistent styling, though you can do it with SVG using Inkscape and/or CSS if you pay attention.
 +
| GUI, Beziér curves; text is also possible. Can you connect a station's group of objects to a curve's control point (and probably transfer control points) to keep them together when reshaping the line (like in Blender's Node Editor)? '''SVG wins.'''
 +
|-
 +
| Viewing
 +
|
 +
* Convenient station search.
 +
* Pathfinding. '''PMZ would have won, if this was important.'''
 +
|
 +
* [https://wiki.linux-forks.de/mediawiki/images/4/4d/RegionalRailMap.svg Convenient station search and wiki page links] in Firefox, not-so-convenient search UI (pressing Tab, Locked objects) and no good result highlighting (not sure about links) in Inkscape. '''For small maps, SVG wins in Firefox.'''
 +
* No pathfinding.
 +
|-
 +
| Description available
 +
| Described in 2008; files use some features probably not in the descriptions, like stuff under construction, and some stuff that belongs in the wiki either way.
 +
| Everything there is to describe is described.
 +
|-
 +
| Detailed data
 +
| Some additional data is supported, but viewer support varies.
 +
| Anything can be added, probably easier.
 +
|-
 +
| Underlying picture support || Yes, but what kind of? || Yes, if the viewer supports it
 +
|-
 +
| Editor support
 +
| Text-only, not easy.
 +
| Inkscape, depends on the action. Text-only, depends.
 +
|-
 +
| Viewer support
 +
| Two for desktop Linux (in C++ and Python) and two Android-only (in Java and Java?); rarely updated, but at least three should work.
 +
| At least a few vector and raster editors and viewers, MediaWiki; most web browsers have some support.
 +
|-
 +
|}
 +
 +
--[[User:ParalyzeEntertain|ParalyzeEntertain]] ([[User talk:ParalyzeEntertain|talk]]) 06:00, 10 October 2019 (CEST)
 +
 +
 +
Hello ParalyzeEntertain, <br>
 +
I think you miss the important point: "Is there an Open Source program to '''edit''' PMZ files?"
 +
* No  -->  no one of the main contributors to the wiki will make an PMZ file -->  any further discussion is wasted time and the complete discussion ends here as offically no PMZ file will be created or supported.
 +
* Yes -->  Please tell us where.<br>
 +
The number of available viewer and the supported operation system is not relevant.
 +
 +
As it seems that no Open Source editor is available I declare this discussion about PMZ as ended. <br>
 +
--[[User:Och Noe|Och Noe]] ([[User talk:Och Noe|talk]]) 12:00, 10 October 2019 (CEST)
 +
 +
: After seeing (and at least hoping) what Inkscape and Firefox are capable of doing with SVG, and considering that I want to be able to align stations with coordinates and see that under my mouse pointer, I'd say "no" (I haven't even seen the non-free "editor"). As you can see, the complete discussion is not over, because I asked questions about SVG, not just PMZ. That's why I will try moving it to [[Talk:Maps]] now (and not [[Talk:Maps/Archive]]). --[[User:ParalyzeEntertain|ParalyzeEntertain]] ([[User talk:ParalyzeEntertain|talk]]) 16:42, 10 October 2019 (CEST)
 +
 +
ParalyzeEntertain:
 +
* Most stations have no timetable for departure information, mainly due to the feature not built into station/stop tracks.
 +
* The developer of Advtrains has added railway time (RWT) to advtrains, which ''claims'' to be better than real life time (RLT)-based timetables. However:
 +
:* this isn't (yet) proven to be better
 +
:* it is not related to RLT, which adds complexity for currently existing timetables
 +
:* it's not widely used yet.
 +
:* the theory of RWT itself is still being questioned.
 +
* Even for stations with timetables (controlled by LuaATC), it's still not possible to make sure that trains come at the expected time, due to possible occupation of track sections by other trains.
 +
* As for trip planning:
 +
:* The railway system has grown to be very large, and it will continue to expand. It's better to have this feature inside the game (similar to ticket machines, except no ticket is sold), where it's easier for railway system managers to edit the data directly.
 +
:* There's no timetable for most lines (as mentioned above). Therefore, such trip planning may result in a long waiting time (for example, waiting for {{AM}} instead of taking a detour via West Mountains to [[Crossroads]]).
 +
* On Firefox and Chromium/Chrome, it is possible to search inside SVG files. (you might want to click "Highlight all" in Firefox)
 +
--[[User:Ywang|Ywang]] ([[User talk:Ywang|talk]]) 13:56, 10 October 2019 (CEST)
 +
 +
FYI: RWT is (at least for this server) deprecated and will be - as I understood it in the chat - removed from the advtr___ repository at git.bananach.space. A RLT system will be used.<br>
 +
--[[User:Och Noe|Och Noe]] ([[User talk:Och Noe|talk]]) 14:06, 10 October 2019 (CEST)

Revision as of 16:50, 10 October 2019

Why are there photos of a huge building in the rain and a nice carpet? Just a small question...... --Lucasburlingham (talk) 22:23, 6 June 2019 (CEST)

SVG

out.svg could be changed so that the coordinates in it match the world's coordinates. Also, it seems that the text is just vector graphics. It would be helpful (even if confusing) to have copies of the line names in the labels or descriptions of the objects, so they may be searchable or otherwise readable without looking at the picture, whatever your viewer or editor allows. --ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 20:01, 3 October 2019 (CEST)


  • The coordinates match the coordinates of the map generated at that time.
  • Line names and line numbers may be different from technical line numbers and RCs (get_line() and get_rc()).
  • Afaik the world map is linked to the railway map. Some viewers/browsers allows viewing the railway map wih the world map as background.

--Ywang (talk) 23:17, 3 October 2019 (CEST)

  • When I open out.svg with Inkscape, it has the underlying map scaled to 960×960; the vector layer has some extra space. For Inkscape, you need to scale and move the contents to align both 0,0 and the rest. I just did that, but had to do extra calculations instead of just changing the position to -3000,-3000. I will also have to update it to use the world.png. Scaling does not seem to affect RAM usage significantly. --ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 01:02, 10 October 2019 (CEST)

SVG vs PMZ and other stuff

Moved from Forks talk:Wiki Standards on 10 Oct 2019. Some parts left there, although also copied here.
How are the downloadable maps made? There are map viewers for at least the pMetro's PMZ map format, in which you can find stations by name and let it calculate the optimal route (though the results are ordered based on travel times, which have to be approximated somehow).
  • pMetro is a freeware program for Windows. The map license is somewhat unclear ("free for noncommercial use and for GPL projects"). The editor is also non-free, but the format has a description. The station and line positions on the map are specified as coordinates.
  • Current maps from the program https://pmetro.github.io/maps.htm
  • Of free viewers, the website (which currently has a malicious redirect added somewhere, probably with JS) links to at least:
--ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 22:43, 9 October 2019 (CEST)


To answer/respond to the point you talked about:

  • About maps: the actual line maps are created AFAIK with inkscape, if you load them in inkscape or any other program which can edit SVG you can search for place names. Currently the maps are only made to look at, not for searching for routes.
  • missing places: it is not mandatory for players to write about their cities and places - that is all done voluntary. And several places made by players which had left the server, so only someone who is a long time on the server could know details about such places.
  • names: sometimes the names for places or areas are only visible on a small sign, as area name or it's a name which is not yet written down somewhere, as you have noticed. If you want to know where a place is and can't find it - ask in the chat. You can also add an "empty" page in the wiki with the content that the location is unknown - someone will add sooner or later informations. But please also respect that some places have a name but are not disclosed, because the owner wants to improve that place before making it public. The station names were often decided within seconds to have a name for a station. Some stations have been renamed after some time because a well-known building (etc) was established near that station.
  • pMetro: offering a "RedmondOS"-only program to make maps to us here on the server is like stepping in a minefield - please take again a look at the servername.

--Och Noe (talk) 23:58, 9 October 2019 (CEST)

Blockhead, "You should be able to find the station without co-ordinates"… What if I want to get to a station without teleporting to a big city? Maps have to be edited to align the coordinates. out.svg shows no stations except for the termini. Small stations are almost invisible on the "satellite photos". Two stations can be far from each other, so simply going to the line may be no better than going to a city. --ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 02:13, 10 October 2019 (CEST)

You should be able to find the station without coordinates, because if you know there's a station you want to get to, you probably already know what system it's on and where to find the map for that system. If you don't know that a place exists, then you won't be looking for it. If you know you want to get somewhere, ask if anybody online knows how to get there, or get on the wiki and look up the map. The Regional Rail Map is for looking up how to get between major cities without teleportation. Once you get to the city, you should find a local map. This only breaks down if you can't find a platform with the right service on it or there is no map. I want to make sure neither of those things happens. Then you will be able to find stations without their coordinates.
Your approach seems to be to walk to stations. This isn't how the train system should work; according to you it doesn't work so well. I've asked Gabriel before about putting the regional map in game, but it's too complex so it will probably be simplified and also split into regions. Then you should have no troubles navigating between cities.
-Blockhead (talk) 12:21, 10 October 2019 (CEST)

Och Noe,

  • Maps: Indeed, I haven't thought of searching for the SVG file on the wiki itself. On the other hand, some searches on this wiki do fail.
  • missing places: that's why starting the page is useful.
  • names: ok to everything.
  • pMetro (this really belongs in Talk:Maps — let's move the text?): I take it you stopped reading in the middle of the first item of the list. I didn't even link to anything non-free but (maybe, see above) the default maps as an example (some viewers apparently ship nothing). I was talking about the described file format and a few GPL viewers for GNU/Linux, Android etc. However, the advantage of ease of editing SVG in Inkscape is bigger than that of automated pathfinding.

An attempt of comparison between Inkscape+SVG and text editor/metromap+PMZ (I am not familiar with editing either):

PMZ SVG
File format ZIP with text files XML
Editing Manually enter data (coordinates of lines and stations, click rectangles). Viewers help with consistent styling, though you can do it with SVG using Inkscape and/or CSS if you pay attention. GUI, Beziér curves; text is also possible. Can you connect a station's group of objects to a curve's control point (and probably transfer control points) to keep them together when reshaping the line (like in Blender's Node Editor)? SVG wins.
Viewing
  • Convenient station search.
  • Pathfinding. PMZ would have won, if this was important.
  • Convenient station search and wiki page links in Firefox, not-so-convenient search UI (pressing Tab, Locked objects) and no good result highlighting (not sure about links) in Inkscape. For small maps, SVG wins in Firefox.
  • No pathfinding.
Description available Described in 2008; files use some features probably not in the descriptions, like stuff under construction, and some stuff that belongs in the wiki either way. Everything there is to describe is described.
Detailed data Some additional data is supported, but viewer support varies. Anything can be added, probably easier.
Underlying picture support Yes, but what kind of? Yes, if the viewer supports it
Editor support Text-only, not easy. Inkscape, depends on the action. Text-only, depends.
Viewer support Two for desktop Linux (in C++ and Python) and two Android-only (in Java and Java?); rarely updated, but at least three should work. At least a few vector and raster editors and viewers, MediaWiki; most web browsers have some support.

--ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 06:00, 10 October 2019 (CEST)


Hello ParalyzeEntertain,
I think you miss the important point: "Is there an Open Source program to edit PMZ files?"

  • No --> no one of the main contributors to the wiki will make an PMZ file --> any further discussion is wasted time and the complete discussion ends here as offically no PMZ file will be created or supported.
  • Yes --> Please tell us where.

The number of available viewer and the supported operation system is not relevant.

As it seems that no Open Source editor is available I declare this discussion about PMZ as ended.
--Och Noe (talk) 12:00, 10 October 2019 (CEST)

After seeing (and at least hoping) what Inkscape and Firefox are capable of doing with SVG, and considering that I want to be able to align stations with coordinates and see that under my mouse pointer, I'd say "no" (I haven't even seen the non-free "editor"). As you can see, the complete discussion is not over, because I asked questions about SVG, not just PMZ. That's why I will try moving it to Talk:Maps now (and not Talk:Maps/Archive). --ParalyzeEntertain (talk) 16:42, 10 October 2019 (CEST)

ParalyzeEntertain:

  • Most stations have no timetable for departure information, mainly due to the feature not built into station/stop tracks.
  • The developer of Advtrains has added railway time (RWT) to advtrains, which claims to be better than real life time (RLT)-based timetables. However:
  • this isn't (yet) proven to be better
  • it is not related to RLT, which adds complexity for currently existing timetables
  • it's not widely used yet.
  • the theory of RWT itself is still being questioned.
  • Even for stations with timetables (controlled by LuaATC), it's still not possible to make sure that trains come at the expected time, due to possible occupation of track sections by other trains.
  • As for trip planning:
  • The railway system has grown to be very large, and it will continue to expand. It's better to have this feature inside the game (similar to ticket machines, except no ticket is sold), where it's easier for railway system managers to edit the data directly.
  • There's no timetable for most lines (as mentioned above). Therefore, such trip planning may result in a long waiting time (for example, waiting for ATL-M instead of taking a detour via West Mountains to Crossroads).
  • On Firefox and Chromium/Chrome, it is possible to search inside SVG files. (you might want to click "Highlight all" in Firefox)

--Ywang (talk) 13:56, 10 October 2019 (CEST)

FYI: RWT is (at least for this server) deprecated and will be - as I understood it in the chat - removed from the advtr___ repository at git.bananach.space. A RLT system will be used.
--Och Noe (talk) 14:06, 10 October 2019 (CEST)